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Hannity & Colmes
November 12, 2001

HANNITY: Welcome back to HANNITY & COLMES. I'm Sean Hannity.

America's war against terrorism means new policies will be explored, and

that means some difficult decisions must be made. One important issue facing

us as a nation is keeping our borders safe. Former presidential candidate

Pat Buchanan proposes closing our borders with a two-year ban on immigration

and says that immigrants without valid visas should be deported. He joins us

tonight from Washington.

Pat, good to see you. I don't think we're going to disagree like the last

time, Pat. I think this may be a necessary idea until we can secure the

borders in this country.

PAT BUCHANAN, THE AMERICAN CAUSE: Look, we've got between eight- million and

11-million illegal aliens wandering around the United States, Sean. That is

suicidal. It is suicidal to have a policy of open borders and mass

immigration when we claim to be fighting a war on terrorism against a

network that operates in 60 nations. So I think Tom Ridge has got a very

tough job because the enemy is inside the gates.

HANNITY: Are you saying specifically, Pat, just illegal immigrants or...

BUCHANAN: No, what I would do -- we've got 30-million foreign born. We need

time to assimilate and Americanize them. I would halt immigration, a

moratorium, for two years. That doesn't mean zero. Maybe 250,000 instead of

a million. But I would start moving all the illegal immigrants out of the

United States starting with those who come from countries that harbor

terrorists.

HANNITY: Well, you'd start there, but I was going to ask -- from every

country? Or specifically look at those countries that have harbored

terrorists? I mean, how far do you go with that, Pat? Do you say, "No

Saudi"...

BUCHANAN: Look, if you broke in line and broke the law and broke into our

country, you don't belong here. Now you've got 48 hours or a week to leave

the United States of America.

Sean, you talk on radio about this being a war of civilizations. Our

civilization is at risk. But as soon as someone brings up issues like

immigration, a lot of folks say, "Well, we've got to be progressive here."

Now are we serious that it's a war or are we not?

COLMES: Pat, as much as I agreed you last time you came on the show and

argued with Sean -- now that was music to my ears -- we have a little

disagreement here. Aren't you using the events of September 11 as cover for

a policy you would like to have seen in effect any way?

BUCHANAN: Well, I do believe that illegal immigration has been disastrous

for this country. I think there are huge enclaves of people who really came

here simply for jobs who have no loyalty to...

COLMES: But you're using September 11 as an excuse now for something you'd

be saying anyway and...

BUCHANAN: It's not an excuse.

COLMES: ... using the terrorist attack...

BUCHANAN: No, no. I think it proves I was right, I believe. But let me say

this. How do you look at our country? I look at America as our home. This is

our national home. It's not a flop house. It's not some welfare office. It's

not a job fair for trans-national corporations so they can hire the cheapest

labor. It is our home. We invite guests here. We invite in folks to be

members of our family.

COLMES: Right, but you want to stop that.

BUCHANAN: If you don't look at our country that way, if you just say, "Look,

we need about a million new workers. Let's open our borders..."

COLMES: Pat...

BUCHANAN: As Ronald Reagan said, "A country that doesn't control its borders

isn't a country anymore."

COLMES: Pat, we're talking about two different things. Isn't border control

different than immigration? Immigrants come here to settle permanently.

Border patrol is a separate issue.

BUCHANAN: Right. You've got a very good point.

COLMES: Those who come here permanently -- the terrorists are not the people

who immigrate to live here permanently, right?

BUCHANAN: Very good point. The immigrants I would bring in are those who

have waited in line for years, desperate to become Americans, who want to

become part of the American family, not people who happen -- as Vicente Fox

in Mexico says, "Well, they're going there to get the jobs other people

won't take." He can't decide what our policy is. We decide. We want folks,

Alan, who want to be Americans like you and me and love this country and

learn its history...

COLMES: And you want to close them all down. OK. We'll talk about it when we

come back.

BUCHANAN: No. And learn its history and its heroes and...

HANNITY: All right. Should we have this moratorium on immigration? We'll

continue on the other side of the break. Patrick J. Buchanan.

Remember, by the way, log on to foxnews.com, and you, too, can become a Fox

fan.

More straight ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COLMES: Welcome back to HANNITY & COLMES. We now continue with Pat Buchanan.

Pat Buchanan, you know, the Statue of Liberty stands, torch held high, in

New York Harbor. You want to dismantle it and sell it for parts or send it

back to France. I mean, you know...

BUCHANAN: Oh, OK. Look...

COLMES: ... this is...

BUCHANAN: Alan...

COLMES: Go ahead.

BUCHANAN: Alan, from Cal Coolidge to John F. Kennedy, we had a moratorium on

immigration. During that time, we had World War II, not a single act of

sabotage or terrorism or assassination by foreign nationals against American

citizens.

There's an idea of security that goes along with freedom. We were not an

unfree country from Coolidge and FDR and Eisenhower and Kennedy. We simply

had a moratorium. Then we had a time of open immigration. Now we need a

moratorium.

COLMES: But, you know, there are other ways to go about this, and you, as I

suggested, I think, are doing this using September 11th as cover. In New

York City, for example, Mayor Giuliani, the outgoing mayor, has talked about

acting on bench warrants.

You might be able to find people who are here who have violations, which has

not been done nationwide. Enforcing the laws we have might accomplish what

we need to accomplish without an overreaction, shutting down the borders,

which could hurt business, hurt NAFTA, hurt free trade, stop the inflow --

influx and out flux of people who have legitimate reasons to come here.

BUCHANAN: Alan, you cannot fight a world war an terror and have open

borders, mass immigration, or free trade. We heard the Taliban -- we heard

it said they were going to poison those food packages we dropped. We import

now one-third of the fruits and vegetables we eat. Either we're in a war on

terror and it's serious or you just keep what's going on. There are already

11-million illegals in the United States, Alan. How many more do you need?

COLMES: What you're talking about would raise shipping and transportation

costs, undo many of the benefits we've gained from NAFTA. It would cost the

nation money, and it would be very unAmerican -- it would be everything

against what the Statue of Liberty stands for with the torch held high in

New York Harbor. That's not what we're about in this country.

BUCHANAN: You know, I believe in preserving the security and freedom of the

American people, and I put that ahead of corporate profits from NAFTA.

COLMES: But I'm asking you and I'm suggesting to you that by enforcing the

laws that we have, we can accomplish the same goal without compromising what

we are.

BUCHANAN: All right. Explain to me then why your president did not

accomplish those goals and half a million illegal aliens walked into the

United States across our borders every single year of the 1990s.

HANNITY: Hey, Pat...

BUCHANAN: We're not doing it, Alan.

HANNITY: Hey, Pat -- Pat...

BUCHANAN: Yes.

HANNITY: I really believe today the way the system is designed and our

borders are wide open, Usama bin Laden's best friend today could get into

this country fairly easily.

BUCHANAN: Let me tell you, Sean. Any intelligence service, Chinese, any

hostile country that doesn't have hundreds of agents, spies, and saboteurs

in the United States given our open borders isn't doing its job. If we go to

war against terrorist regimes all over the Middle East, as some folks

suggest, this country's going to blow up with action.

HANNITY: All right. So Pat Buchanan's proposal -- two-year -- two-

and-a-half-year moratorium.

BUCHANAN: Right. On legal immigration.

HANNITY: Legal immigration.

BUCHANAN: That doesn't mean zero. That doesn't mean zero. There are some

obviously who can come in. Just cut it back to 250,000 and get to work

expelling people that don't belong here.

HANNITY: I agree, but you heard...

BUCHANAN: Begin with people who commit crimes, come from terrorist

countries, overstay their visas.

HANNITY: Eight-million people. They told us last week they can't do it. They

don't have the ability. And then they want to federalize these - - these

guards, which is somewhat...

BUCHANAN: Then what sense does it make to run around bombing Afghan kids

that never did anything to us when the enemy is inside our gates? They

killed them up at the Trade Center. They killed them down here at the

Pentagon. You know, they didn't kill them in Afghanistan. We had to go over

there to cut off the head, but the tentacles are in our country, Sean.

HANNITY: We have -- the Northern Alliance, as Fox News has been reporting in

our alert, down there has entered Kabul, and the Taliban forces are now

leaving it. It appears this military effort's more successful by the hour,

Pat.

BUCHANAN: Well, it's a tremendous job by the American Air Force, if that was

done. I cannot believe the Taliban would just abandon Kabul and retreat.

That's astonishing...

HANNITY: Well, that's -- we're -- Fox News is reporting Northern Alliance

soldiers are now in the capital of Kabul and that -- the Taliban forces are

moving out.

COLMES: And Fox News will keep you posted. Pat, thank you very much.

BUCHANAN: OK.

COLMES: Nice to argue with you for a change. You agreed too much last time.

BUCHANAN: Take it easy, Alan.

COLMES: That's all the time we have left for tonight.

Remember, for all news all day, watch the Fox News Channel. This is the

network America trusts for fair and balanced news.

Join us tomorrow night. More HANNITY & COLMES, 9:00 Eastern. And thank you

for watching Fox News.

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